CNN "Erin Burnett Outfront" - Transcript: Interview with Jim McGovern

Interview

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REP. JIM MCGOVERN (D-MA): I'm going to tell you, if there's anybody in this chamber who doesn't believe that it's important to get to the truth about what happened on the 6th or who wants to make believe that what happened on the 6th didn't happen on the 6th, that it's a typical tourist day on the Capitol, they are not fit to serve in this chamber and I've had it.

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BURNETT: Referring back to that GOP Congressman who said it was like a tourist visit. One of the most incredible things actually for anyone to have said. I'm going to speak to McGovern in just a moment. But I also want to make the point because he's a Democrat that it is not just Democrats who have had it. Look at the circus that is now the third election audit in Arizona, first two finding nothing.

A Republican official who called Trump's lies unhinged, telling me last night that this has to stop.

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STEPHEN RICHER, (R) MARICOPA COUNTY RECORDER: Just stop indulging this. Stop giving space for lies. I mean, this has been a very rude awakening into what politics has become.

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BURNETT: McCarthy now a symbol of what politics has become, unwilling to do his job, unwilling to get to the truth because he's afraid.

Manu Raju is OUTFRONT live on Capitol Hill. So Manu, let's just get to the bottom line here as I said, Steve Scalise, the number two leader going out to saying urgently vote against this, vote against this, trying to get as many Republicans to not sign on as he can. So where does the bill stand? How far does it get?

MANU RAJU, CNN CHIEF CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, it will get out of the House tomorrow. There's no question about that, that the Democrats have the majority and narrow majority. Some Republicans will vote for it, but probably not a lot of Republicans because of McCarthy's position.

When McCarthy is moving his opposition is significant because it could certainly influence the vote in the Senate and I'll tell you why, Erin. If people will come out in support of this, but then there would probably be a significant bipartisan majority that will pass in the House that would make it almost assured that a bipartisan majority would pass it in the Senate.

But in the Senate, you need 60 votes to get anything through, that's 50 Democrats right now undoubtedly support this plan, can they get the 10 Republicans. That is an open question given McCarthy's opposition. Look no further than Sen. John Thune, the number two Republican. Yesterday, he told a group of us that he thinks a bill could pass in

some form. He said that having a narrow focus on the events of January 6th are good enough. But today he said he didn't realize that the Republican leadership in the House had not signed off on it and he said that it's still an open question and the key question too will be Sen. Mitch McConnell, the Republican leader.

I asked him whether or not he still has concerns that similar to Kevin McCarthy's that this probe is too narrowly focused that it should be focused on some of the protests that occurred on last summer as McCarthy has called for. He did not go that far but he did say that he wants to look at this and is concerned about the duplicative nature of this.

So eventually, Erin, even though Steve Scalise who is recommending a no vote against this and that we do expect that this vote will pass even though it will pass, the question ultimately be on the Senate Republican's lap and how they come down as open question as a couple of them are signaling they will support it, Lisa Murkowski, Mitt Romney and what do they have in question, Erin, they voted to convict Donald Trump for inciting an insurrection. But there are only seven Republicans who did just that. Will 10 eventually break ranks, that will be the big question to ensure this can get to Joe Biden's desk, Erin.

BURNETT: All right. Manu, thank you very much.

And I want to go now to the Chairman of the House Rules Committee, as I promised, Democratic Congressman Jim McGovern, who presided over a markup of the January 6th commission bill today. Look, I appreciate your time.

Obviously, Leader McCarthy matters. He matters and he matters for his rank and file and Scalise is going out and urging them. They don't want any Republicans to vote for this.

[19:10:01]

They want to make this look as political as possible. Why do you think when you try to get to the bottom of it, McCarthy opposes the January 6th Commission, which is, I want to note, was negotiated by a Republican and would be bipartisan?

REP. JIM MCGOVERN (D-MA): Well, that's a good question. I've concluded that Kevin McCarthy is a weak and cowardly individual who's afraid of Donald Trump. I wouldn't be surprised if Donald Trump tried to kill this.

But here's the sad thing, the ranking Republican member of the committee on Homeland Security worked out this deal with Chairman Bennie Thompson and it's a bipartisan deal. And by the way, Kevin McCarthy sent a letter to Speaker Pelosi with all these demands that he said were necessary in order to win his support, including a evenly split Democrat-Republican number of commissioners, equal subpoena power I can go on and on and on. But we met all of these conditions. All of the things that Kevin

McCarthy wanted have been included in this compromise. And yet, to everybody's surprise, I guess, maybe not to everybody's surprise, but he came out today and said he was against it. And I think the only reasonable conclusion is that he's afraid of Donald Trump and he doesn't want to offend him, doesn't want to get disinvited to Mar-a- Lago. But it is sad and it is pathetic and getting to the truth matters here.

I was there on January 6th. I was the last person off the House floor. I had to tell members to get their gas masks, before they evacuated. I walked down to the Speaker's lobby and saw this mad mob breaking the glass. There were Republicans there as well.

BURNETT: Yes.

MCGOVERN: And my hope is that my fellow Republicans will stand up to the bully in Mar-a-Lago and do the right thing and get to the truth. The American people deserve the truth and deserve the truth by a bipartisan commission.

BURNETT: And I think it's important what you point out by holding up that letter, equal subpoena power, equal representation, that you met all the demands that are in the letter and now still, he says, no. But I want to ask you about the Senate side.

Manu is obviously pointing out you'll get this through the House because you've got the majority. And I'm putting aside the moment of - for a moment the fact that you obviously could get more Republicans on board than you will because of McCarthy and Scalise's opposition.

But in the Senate there are some Republicans standing up. This is going to be a crucial vote for that. Lisa Murkowski said today that former President Trump himself should testify before your January 6th commission. She told CNN that Trump will be a key individual. So what do you think about her point of view? Obviously, he'll likely refuse, but does this give you heart?

MCGOVERN: It does. Look, there are some Republicans in the Senate and in the House who have stood up. I have great respect for Liz Cheney for her willingness to stand up for the truth and not buy into the big lie and her continued call for accountability, in return Kevin McCarthy threw her into oncoming traffic. I mean, that was he canceled her.

And - but I'm hoping that people are going to look at her, are going to look at Mitt Romney and Sen. Murkowski and others and say, you know what, this is the time to do the right thing. I mean, this should not be a difficult vote. I mean, this is a truly bipartisan commission, negotiated in a bipartisan way and it is what we all strive to achieve here on Capitol Hill that it is controversial, that Kevin McCarthy all of a sudden is getting cold feet, because he's afraid of Donald Trump. It's pathetic.

And so I appeal to my Republican colleagues, do the right thing. It's important. It's important that this commission move forward and that there be a full accounting and that the truth be out there.

BURNETT: So a number of Republicans are saying they think the January 6th commission is too narrow. McCarthy is now saying that. McConnell interestingly demur or didn't go that far. But the ranking member of your committee, Congressman Tom Cole said this at your hearing today. I'll play it for viewers.

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REP. TOM COLE (R-OK): It makes sense to grant any such commission the capability to look more broadly at political violence in this country, including widespread violence of last summer and previous attempts to attack members of this body. After all, the 911 Commission was able to look not only at the September 11th attacks, but also the broader context out of which those attacks rose. It seems to me that this commission should do the same.

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BURNETT: Interesting parallel he draws to the 9/11 commission and its ability to go broader in terms of context. Do you think that he has a point?

MCGOVERN: No, I don't. And by the way, the mandate of this commission allows the commissioners to look at anything related to January 6th. It's very similar to the September 11th commission.

But look, some Republicans want to look into Black Lives Matter. They want to look into the attack on Republicans during the baseball game.

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I mean, they are throwing all kinds of things out there to make it impossible to talk about what happened on January 6th. And let's not forget what happened on January 6th, this place was attacked. There was an insurrection. We had people walking through the Capitol with confederate flags with T-shirts that said Camp Auschwitz. And we had people who died, people who are wounded.

I mean, come on, this should not be controversial. The only reason why it is, is because the QAnon wing of the Republican Party is holding Kevin McCarthy's feet to the fire and Kevin McCarthy is frightened to death over Donald Trump. It is incredibly sad. I said today that his opposition to this has nothing to do with policy, has nothing to do with substance but it does have to do with character and his fitness to lead.

I mean, this shows his lack of character by coming out against this because he's afraid of Donald Trump. And this also shows his unfitness to lead.

BURNETT: All right. Chairman, I appreciate your time. Thank you very much.

MCGOVERN: All the best. Be safe.

BURNETT: All right. Thank you.

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